Klain’s departure and the Biden document crime problem

Klain’s Leaving of the Bunker

Ron Klain, Biden’s Chief of Staff is said to be departing the job soon. He is of course the brains behind so much of the situation the country is in right now.  Biden is evil but not very smart and has no attention span.  The coordination of so much economic  and cultural destruction requires staff and Party.

There have been a number of articles surmising that Klain’s departure is wrapped up in the growing scandal over the revelation of Biden having classified documents that he was not authorized to have at the time he took them and that he kept them for years in inadequately secured at best multiple locations. That might be downplayed if it were not the case that Democrats were intent on making an indictable offense out of  Trump having classified documents in a secure set up, documents he de facto legally authorized to himself. Here is one such article at RedState:

REPORT: Ron Klain to Resign Over Biden Classified Docs Scandal. 

My initial take was: If this is supposed to be “we’ll give you Klain if you leave us alone” well how ridiculous. Klain had absolutely nothing to do with Biteme’s document problem other than maybe helping keep a lid on it. So if he helped keep it out of the election (to his credit in the left’s warped way of thinking) it must be that his running things has been a disaster and certain of Joe’s people people realize it even though they are as responsible. They want Klain out as a scapegoat – the public can assign whatever reason they want. You can’t punish a prince so you have a whipping boy.

But what of Biden/Klien policies does Biden not like?? I mean are they Biden policies or not? We know they are largely disasters in essence but is Klain the only evil sentient person in the regime?  The Biden/ Klain decisions cannot be recovered from soon. I think it more that Klain knows that and the implications of the document scandal and what is coming down the pike and he does not want to be around. Otherwise the power he held would be too addicting to leave.

I will expand a bit more on this but here are some more takes from various commentaries about the situation.  Readers will no doubt recognize that much of what is surmised in the commentaries are not mutually exclusive, various possibilities could be operating somewhat independently and reinforcing one another.

From Nic Arama at RedState:

Yikes: Here’s a New Pic of How ‘Seriously’ Joe Biden Takes Important Docs at His House

One of the things that has been most concerning about Biden’s scandal is how many other people Biden might have exposed the documents to with his irresponsibility. Among the people who appear to have had access to the classified documents next to the Corvette in his garage was his son, Hunter Biden, who was having issues with drugs while he was living at the house, not to mention he had a lot of involvement with people connected to foreign governments. We reported how there are pictures of Hunter in Joe’s Corvette with his 12-year-old niece Natalie and another young girl.

Arama relies pictures and news posted in the NY Post and Washington Free Beacon for some of his commentary.  From the NYPost:

A box labeled “Important Doc’s + Photos” was left unsealed on a table ahead of a child’s birthday party in the Delaware home where the 80-year-old president has been discovered to have stashed sensitive government records, a photo from his son’s laptop, discovered by The Post Friday reveals.

Another image on the infamous laptop reveals that Hunter Biden apparently made more than 160 trips to the sprawling, lakeside house in just 52 days during the same time he was involved in controversial business dealings with a Chinese energy conglomerate — and while the home contained the discovered classified documents.

From Bonchie also at RedState first with a quote from Ted Cruz regarding Attorney General Merrick Garland’s appointment of a special council to look into the document matter :

And he was forced to do it. He had no choice but appoint a special counsel, given the utter hypocrisy in going after Trump. And it was discovered that Biden had classified documents, not in one place, not in two places, not in three places, but four and five. He had ’em stuck by his Corvette, he had ’em stuck in a room by his garage, he had ’em in the Penn Center, he had them in the residence — you’ve got to wonder where Joe Biden didn’t have classified documents.

Bonchie comments:

This really boils down to Biden’s criminality, even if it’s not prosecuted, complicating the DOJ’s pursuit of Donald Trump. For all the “it’s different” protestations from the press and their Democrat allies, it’s unlikely the American people will broadly see it that way. In fact, a new poll shows that a full 71 percent believe Biden’s mishandling of classified documents is “serious” or “somewhat serious.”

All the micro arguments in the world about Trump committing “obstruction” aren’t going to change the fact that Biden broke the plain letter of the law. The statute clearly says “gross negligence” and does not require intent. It’s also highly questionable at this point that any of what Biden did was an accident. One doesn’t typically “accidentally” take dozens of classified documents, move them multiple times, and scatter them around like confetti, including in a home office filing cabinet.

To prosecute Trump at this point but not Biden would actually help the former’s 2024 presidential bid. That it would also represent another public black eye for the DOJ is a given. As Cruz lays out, that is the real problem for the administration. Biden himself isn’t in any legal danger, but the White House’s attempts to weaponize the federal government to take down Trump may be.

The Gift That Keeps On Giving:

From yours truly at Veritaspac.com

There are different angles proffered in various conservative commentaries we monitor, all of them plausible. But my guess, because of the Biden crime clean-up operatives having started their secret investigation when they did, prior to the midterm election,  is they got a heads-up and they wanted to get ahead of it because of the whole hypocrisy thing given their grotesque calumny about Trump’s documents.

The immediate goal was to keep Biden’s actual offense under wraps ’til after the midterms and then slow-walk it.  They got this from a leak so they have to worry about more leaks and therefor they have to be in a position to say they were “taking it seriously” and “being transparent” in only reporting the matter many weeks after they started the “investigation” . The game plan being to turn it over to a presumably friendly process (calling a special council works).

The scenario then becomes “control the information flow”  and be in a position to claim “‘we can’t answer any of your questions because of the on-going investigation (they control).”  Most of their (non-binary) lackeys in the media will be compliant. They also  must do this because they have such awful empty-headed people to make their case before the public — Karine (as in Careen from stupid to stupider) Jean-Pierre with her childish yet simpleton appearance (and the smarts to go with it) and of course Joe Bite-Me (who knows what hostile gibberish will come out of his deteriorating reptilian brain).

Unfortunately their comments cannot help but be seen to be dissimulation because of DRATS! HUNTER”S LAPTOP — pictures of the garage — the time-line, etc. So WE ARE ****ED NOW (insert favorite expletives) becomes the hit and the bunker mentality sets in. Damn that Free Beacon, NYPost, Townhall, RedState and all the rest of the counter revolutionaries.

So Joe’s people say let them have Klain, he is the reason we are doing so poorly in so many areas such that we are unable to continue the grift. OR possibly Klain is abandoning ship knowing it will get worse but at a time when he can say “if they had only followed what I prepared for them things would be even more wonderful”. Either way Joe’s outside brains will try to spin the Klain departure as best they can but regardless that Klain did not scatter classified documents around Joe’s house, garage and various offices pre-White House residency or forget to pick-up Hunter’s laptop.

Maybe they will be forced to go light on their Trump accusations although they will try like hell to make distinctions to get them through the day. So I do not think it was originally a plot to get Biden out as in such circumstances the whole house of cards is impacted, as the Party is embarrassed. Though sane but evil elements want Biden out they could do less embarrassing things to make Biden’s reelection bid untenable. They would not pursue this angle at the expense of giving up the Trump attack angle BY DESIGN. This hand was somehow forced by situation(s) yet to be revealed.

Related reading:The NYT Reveals How the WH Thought They Could Cover Up Biden Docs Debacle

 

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WHO is one-world government

The reach of the rubric of ‘health” is all encompassing. The World Health Organizations proposals outlined in this communication sent to us by SF are essentially that of one-world government, and there is no escaping it. The WHO is allied with and encouraged by the World Economic Forum and the environmentalist movers and shakers. The author of the comments set forth here we have featured before,.  He is a Federal Senator from Australia who identifies as a liberal in the classic meaning we suspect.

Dear Susan,

If there has been one consistent theme of the COVID-19 pandemic, it’s that the “experts” have consistently been wrong.

Initially, the WHO failed to scrutinise China’s role in the outbreak. One can only wonder why?

Then, echoing the advice of the World Health Organisation, the experts were wrong about lockdowns, which dismantled economies and ended more lives than they saved.

They were wrong about the efficacy of masks, the dangers of COVID-19 itself, and the safety and efficacy of the mandatory mRNA injections, which don’t prevent one from catching or transmitting the virus and are linked to adverse events including myocarditis and death.

Now, the World Health Assembly, the WHO’s decision-making body, is seeking to amend its International Health Regulations, which has 194 member states including Australia and create a new international “convention, agreement or other international instrument on pandemic prevention, preparedness and response”, the so-called “Pandemic Treaty”.

These proposed amendments together with the Pandemic Treaty would grant the WHO more power over any future “global health emergencies” it declares, including a future pandemic.

I recently voiced my concerns about the WHO and the decisions that are being made behind closed doors. You can watch that social media video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVJyv9hSUxo

Some of the proposed amendments include:

  • Erasing the words “with full respect for the dignity, human rights and fundamental freedoms of persons” and replacing them with “based on the principles of equity, inclusivity, coherence and in accordance with their common but appreciated responsibilities of the States Parties, taking into consideration their social and economic development.” (Your guess is as good as mine as to what that means).
  • Granting the WHO greater access to the personal and private data of citizens in its preparation for and response to a health emergency.
  • Potentially allowing the WHO to rely on undisclosed sources for information on health emergencies within member states and granting the WHO the authority to declare health emergencies without obtaining verification from the relevant member state.
  • Strengthening its ties to universities, government departments, and social media platforms to ensure that messaging which contradicts its perspective is censored. This even though much of what was deemed “misinformation and disinformation” by the WHO in 2020 is now accepted as fact.

The WHO has also suggested that it should be able to make recommendations to member states with respect to international travel, including the following:

  • “require proof of vaccination or other prophylaxis”
  • “require vaccination or other prophylaxis”
  • “place suspect persons under public health observation”
  • “implement quarantine or health measures for suspect persons”

These are sweeping, draconian proposals that, if implemented, could take us further down the totalitarian rabbit-hole.

These amendments are a power-grab, plain and simple. We must raise our collective voices on this issue, or suffer the fate of being ruled by unelected and unaccountable health “experts” with questionable ties to big pharma and foreign adverse interests such as the CCP.

Your sincerely,

Alex Antic
Liberal Senator for South Australia

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Comparing the treatment of Steve King and George Santos (and others)

What deference to truth and the people in Steve King’s Iowa congressional district did Kevin McCarthy show to Steve King?

Answer: None – because Steve King never lied, was forthcoming (a fault in political parlance) and his constituents were gas lighted – by the Republican establishment in Iowa

King’s Iowa constituency was denied effective representation by King’s removal from committees through  (according to King)  prevaricating Kevin McCarthy. 

Giving George Santos committee assignments — taking away Steve Kings — Kevin McCarthy is/was behind both.  Go figure. 

Rep. George Santos Gets Committee Assignments After All

We understand that there is apparently no operative law to deny liar George Santos from being sworn in.

Why Congress Can’t Refuse to Seat Santos.

But how does giving him committee assignments show any sense of political integrity? STOP LAUGHING!

As far as we know nothing stops his district’s GOP leaders from pursuing a recall or resignation . . . and at least making him persona non grata. People of substance in that district (not to be found in DC apparently) can use his case to establish themselves comparatively as the party of integrity (no party or candidate is perfect). The party in his district can win again.

Now we can agree with the biting truth and ridicule in the memes we set forth here but acting like Dems, lowering oneself to their level is not the way to gain loyalty, no-party voters, or in our more idealistic view sustainable power. We consider the pursuit of an aura of integrity politically advantageous and expedient. We know “what a concept”

Democrats demanding George Santos resign over resume lies are silent on Biden’s decades of lies.

Santos Can’t Touch the Democrats’ Duplicity.

New York Democrats introduce SANTOS Act to punish lawmakers who lie about background

Hell take them up on it.  The honest effect would be a  stupendous advantage for Republicans

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Big Brother’s DNA is all over Data Base and Surveillance Regimes

An article by Scott Morefield writing at Townhall drew our appreciation this morning.  Read his comments regarding the civil liberties dangers surrounding efforts to catch a serial killer.

The Idaho Suspect, DNA, And Why Ann Coulter Misses the Mark On Crime And Civil Liberty

We applaud Scott’s comments about the surveillance state and also as regards the inferences about the dangers of companies being required to or volunteering to treat your DNA like their property or the governments in submitting it to dragnet warrants.

If there are 10 or 100 geneology database companies does the government get to blanket them all with warrants on the pretext of catching a killer? Everybody gets searched to find a lead or establish evidence? Then why shouldn’t every medical facility in a given area or nationwide be subject to the dragnet? And with all that information in hand who thinks the government won’t establish their own database? I mean after all if it saves one person or family from the serial killer killing again isn’t it worth it?

Truth is the most prolific killer is the state and one of their key tools is surveillance and secret information. Now they don’t always kill with guns they often don white coats and claim public health emergency or the greater good (in their jaundiced view). The view of Coulter and big-government types is ~~ we have this tool and we must use it ~~. It is their relentless logic and justification. It is also the logic of death of freedom by government.

Coulter has become a proponent of it. She has become afraid of shadows and willing to do anything to avoid them to be safe from them. How pathetic. Our advice to Coulter is to carry a gun if she is so afraid and leave the DNA of any actual murderous perp where they stand.

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“Platform Republican” appointed to replace Nebraska’s Sasse in U.S. Senate

Phrase “Platform Republican”  ought to be a rallying cry

Ben Sasse resigning from the U.S. Senate with his replacement being a conservative former governor is a good thing. As Senator “pain-in-the-Sasse” Sasse is such a prickly character he is better off in academia where his smarter-than-though pretense of intellectual superiority might have more cashe`.  Or not, but that is his and the University of Florida’s problem. In fairness Sasse had merits but when the opportunity arrises there is no need to be half-Sasse about his replacement.

This Daily Caller report yesterday about the two-year appointment of Ricketts of the four remaining in Sasse’s term (a new election for the remaining two years will be set) is fine as far as it goes but most non-Nebraskans are unaware as to what the appointment of former Governor Ricketts means ideologically. Nebraska has done worse than Sasse but now it has done better

Former Governor Appointed To Replace Sen. Ben Sasse

Not all Republicans are the same (witness retiring Sasse).  The two links below flesh out where Ricketrts can presumed to be. We took particular delight in hearing of Ricketts in a primary battle for governor establishing himself as a “Platform Republican” – which are consistently conservative around the country.  Ricketts stated positions and record as governor were consistent with that adopted moniker.

Ballotpedia — Pete Ricketts

Wikipedia – Pete Ricketts

We think the phrase Platform Republican properly invokes what ought to be a standard for Republicans seeking office, re-election.

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Kevin McCarthy becomes speaker for all the right reasons . . even though it was not his intention

The Twenty –  the rough number of Republican holdouts to the confirmation of Kevin McCarthy – a group that ought to go down in history as champions in the fight to restore the republic.

The Two-Hundred –– the rough number reflecting the bulk of the Republican Caucus who are oh so willing to rubber stamp McCarthy without condition in furtherance of business as usual in the House — pork laden bills in particular — shirking responsibility. Some of them are even complainers about The System but who exposed themselves as phonies by trying to avoid serious inducements to reform.

It took fifteen votes for Kevin McCarthy to agree to the needed reforms in House rules that he would have never acceded to if  The Twenty had not held fast. He could have had his coronation on day one of voting because he knew what The Twenty wanted which was supported by the sentiment of activist Republicans across the nation. He misjudged their perseverance.

After enough of The Twenty felt that  McCarthy had agreed to the package of needed reforms they gave their support to his quest for Speaker or withdrew their opposition.

We will see if the Two Hundred, bought and paid for by The System, vote for the rules McCarthy said he will support.  Maybe he has the power to implement them on his own but it remains to be seen if he will honor the commitment to The Twenty or try to subvert them*.

The Twenty* spoke truth to power using the power (leverage) they had to force reforms on the kicking and screaming louts who McCarthy had eating out of his hand, almost literally.  That would be The Two-hundred

The Twenty may be the saviors of The People’s House, decayed by years of Speakers using highhanded tactics to push through gargantuan spending authorizations, stifling debate, ignoring or corrupting rules, basically being dictators.

So it looks like maybe 10% of the Republican caucus ~~20 of ~~ 220 deserve respect for pursuing the right thing, the others not so much. If not closet Quislings in leftist occupied DC that The Two-Hundred are weaklings seems to fit. The Twenty are the Lions of the House. God bless them and give them wisdom and stamina to continue the fight.

*More on The Speaker in coming posts.

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The Give Us Barabbas (business as usual) Republicans

Now we are not saying a person acceptable to the 20 House members holding up confirmation of Kevin McCarthy, or outright opposing his speakership, is the Jesus factor.  However given many of the 200 Republican’s supporting McCarthy and their demonstrated unprincipled behavior it is as appropriate to refer to their clamoring for “moving on” with McCarthy without further reforms to the body politic in the House as the  give us Barabbas  – business as usual – crowd. And besides they started it with their insurrectionist/terrorist/mutineers/idiots/saboteurs pitchfork bellowing.

Dear Fox and other Conservative Inc. corporate shills trying to do a number on The Twenty:

Instead of spotlighting the 20 try some real reporting and spotlight the 200 and why they are not telling McCarthy to accept the reforms that the Republican base wants to see happen — especially ending the pork laden indefensible 2000 + spending bills that they all get to say tsk tsk about as they vote for them unread except for the dogeared pages of the earmarks they got in the belief that the bacon is what it is all about however wasteful.

If McCarthy would accede to the needed reforms he is holding out on he could be speaker on the next vote.

Again, why are so many Republicans opposing the needed reforms the base wants? That ought to be the debate. It is the wrong question to taunt the 20 with identifying who they want, any of the 20 would be better than McCarthy. The better question is why so many conservatives are betraying the base for essentially business as usual.

Then there is the misplaced loyalty (I bought you) BS hurled at The Twenty that McCarthy spent millions to help they and other republicans get elected  1) it was not McCarthy’s money and he was spending largely on the nominees of the party 2) The “tradition” of giving so much money to one guy to parcel out on the presumption that the recipients will be loyal to McCarthy, who will be loyal to the mega donors is corrupt. Did the recipients swear allegiance to McCarthy or the Constitution? Perhaps too many of the 200 swore themselves to McCarthy and business as usual.

Roger Stone while not my favorite Republican strategist over the years made this comment at Infowars: – “Any Support Kevin McCarthy Has in House Is ‘Bought and Paid For’‘. Few have as much experience with Rinos and the establishment beltway types as Stone having been a creature of the swamp plying the crevices for decades.

Related reading:

Tucker Carlson Asks Why Does Everyone in DC Want to Demonize, Attack and Eliminate the House Reform Group

John Fredericks: ‘FOX News Is 24/7 Shill for Kevin McCarthy’

https://dossier.substack.com/p/the-uniparty-roosters-crow-for-kevin

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/stacey-lennox/2023/01/04/a-significant-majority-of-republican-voters-agree-with-the-gop-rebels-n1658511

https://www.aol.com/fox-news-host-calls-gop-064426602.html

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2023/01/05/mccarthy-concessions-n2617930?recip=676350

https://cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/glenn-beck-what-speaker-debate-really-about

https://pjnewsletter.com/gop-house-mccarthy-hannity-boebert/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=pjnewsletter

Tucker Carlson Asks Why Does Everyone in DC Want to Demonize, Attack and Eliminate the House Reform Group

 

 

RINOs to Grassroots America: Shut Up! Know Your Place!

 

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What do McCarthy’s supporters oppose about the concessions McCarthy’s opponents demand?

  • The spotlight needs to be on individual congressman in each of their districts as to why they want business largely as usual — because without more reforms that is what it will be.
  • Why are McCarthy and his 200 supporters holding out against reforms supported by the Republican base
  • Who are the terrorists against the considered opinion of the Republican base?

It seems to us that the Republican base in general supports the various reforms that the “Terrorist”** twenty demand of Kevin McCarthy in order to garner their support for his quest to be speaker.  McCarthy has acceded to some we are told, but why not all of them as they all seem reasonable?  He could have the Speakership promptly if he did.  What powers are so important to the swamp?

Perhaps the key relates to omni-bus bills and spending disciplined, the budgeting process prepared in time, not laden with pork and always the  bums rush to pass lest “government be shut down”

Instead of the twenty being made to look like a fringe of the party for holding out for more needed reforms, the 200 supporting McCarthy without those reforms need to be spotlighted in each of their districts. That includes Iowa’s Republican delegation. Miller-Meeks, Feenstra, Hinson, Congressman-elect Nunn who seem secretly for porkulas bill processes.  Why do they oppose the reforms the twenty demand? If they are for the reforms then why are THEY not encouraging McCarthy to adopt them? The imbroglio could end quickly but for them.  Who are the terrorists against considered opinion of the republican base?


**The shibboleth dropped by congressman Dan Crenshaw in his denunciation of those who are holding fast in their opposition to McCarthy as Speaker.  Once thought to be an insurgent, Crenshaw has for some time cast himself as the iconoclast “the good reasonable big-government establishment guy” a.k.a. hit man against conservatives.  Thus he has been aptly named “McCain with an eyepatch”.

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When Democrat”terrorists” got their way and forced Pelosi to agree to something she did not want

  • A little tidbit to remember
  • Speaker fights are nothing new even in recent years

Elephants are supposed to have long memories. Anyway what’s that he’s stepping on.

What, say it isn’t so, “insurgents” a.k.a. “terrorists”* were able to pull down a Speaker of the House grip on power?!

Nancy Pelosi was under obligation to step down from speaker EVEN if Democrats held on to the House in the 2022 mid-terms

Did it hurt her ability to govern the lot? Were Democrats ineffectual as a result?

From this morning’s Daily Signal recap of extended Speaker votes over the course of our nation’s history:

7 Big Fights for Speaker of the House (excerpt)

Democrats won control of the House in the 2018 midterm elections, but 21 of the newly elected and returning Democrats vowed during the campaign that they would not vote for House Democrat Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., to reclaim the speakership. 

Of those 21 Democrats, 13 were freshmen; another previously had won a special election in Pennsylvania. They were a mix of far-left progressives in deep-blue congressional districts, where Pelosi was viewed as an out-of-touch Washington hand, and moderates who ran in red and purple districts who didn’t like her politics. 

Another 19 successful Democrat candidates in the 2018 midterm elections were noncommittal during their campaigns about whether they would vote for Pelosi to return as House speaker in January 2019 after her stint in the job from 2007 to 2011. 

Initially, Democrats’ goal was to allow these new members to keep their promise by opposing Pelosi for speaker in a meeting of the House Democratic Caucus, but support her in the House floor vote. However, 16 Democrats formalized their opposition by signing a letter asserting that they were “committed to voting for new leadership in both our caucus meeting and on the House floor.” 

Eventually, Pelosi was forced to negotiate a deal with these Democrats, agreeing that she and her leadership team of Reps. Steny Hoyer, D-Md., and James Clyburn, D-S.C., would term-limit themselves to four years. 

This convinced most of the rebellious Democrats to return to the fold. On Jan. 3, 2019, the opening day of the session, just 12 Democrats voted for someone other than Pelosi for speaker while three abstained. 

Pelosi still had enough support, 220 votes, to become speaker again.


* Nice little term coined by Dan “Eyepatch McCain” Crenshaw regarding the twenty who are holding out for needed reforms in how the country does business.

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Would anything really change in the House if McCarthy becomes Speaker?

  • Based on his political pedigree not likely and that is the problem

We think Kevin McCarthy persona is one of a game player — another insider who would try to keep business as usual in the House.

Oh there are conservatives votes and efforts to his credit but he is “Boehner-light” given a few of McCarthy’s concessions — but largely of the swamp and Boehnereish. The porkulas bills rushed through at the last minute “to avoid a shut down” will continue.  That is where he gets most of his support, including from the entire Iowa Republican delegation able to vote. To mix some metaphors the country is on a cliff and McCarthy seems more the type to manage the fall, concerned more that the Swamp survives, to fight another day, except they don’t fight very hard.

The optics of the multiple votes worry many conservatives and there is a big media group-think if not cabal (which includes Fox) intent on making  the 20 current holdouts appear obstructionist.  But the more obstructionist they stay in furtherance of more needed reforms the larger they loom in American history and the safety of our republic.

Here are a few takes on the situation which no one has to agree with completely of course but are mostly not incompatable.

From Congressman Mark Goetz:

Those of us who will not be voting for Kevin McCarthy today take no joy in this discomfort that this moment has brought. But if you want to drain the swamp, you cannot put the biggest alligator in charge of the exercise,” Gaetz said. “I’m a Florida man and I know of what I speak.

From Erick Erickson: Here’s How to Get a Speaker of the House by Noon

Tucker Carlson: Two Things McCarthy Should Do To Win Speaker’s Gavel   ( there are things as important as these Tucker)

Mick Mulvaney Details Why Kevin McCarthy Is Facing Such Intense Opposition in Speakership Bid.    (substitute the word principled for personal and Mulvaney makes more sense.)

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